HWUMC

I like to launch a discussion about how to belay a second because I saw it so often that someone used the reverso or ATC for belaying a second in the same way like belaying a leader (rope comes directly from the second climber to the belay person) and I was always taught not to use it in that way. What I was taught was that when you like to use it in the way you use it for belaying a leader you should use a additional karabiner over you, so that the rope comes from the second, goes through the karabiner and back to your belay devise. (clear what I mean???). The reason for it is that when the second falls he directly hangs in your harness and pulls you downwards- really uncomfortable- and additional you have to pull the rope upwards/backwards which doesn't allow you a good control about the rope, does it (I have never used it in that way, maybe I should)?!

(Maybe it is again a good example for country differences?!)

Here are some informations I found when I searched for arguments for using the belay device in this or that way. In non of the manufacturer's instructions the belay was used without the additional karabiner for changing the direction of the rope but neither they said that it is dangerous to use it without that karabiner.
Is it just a thing of preference?

petzl - reverso general web page, with a really good video about how to use it and some general advices:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=204
specific notice, with really nice pictures about how to use it:
http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/D1 ... 5500-D.pdf

black diamond - atc general web page:
http://www.bdel.com/gear/belay_rappel_overview.php
unfortunately not as good as the petzl web page. It only explain the self-braking method to belay a second.

trango - B52 geneal web page:
http://www.trango.com/prod.php?id=17
with the instructions, includes the self-braking method and the standard use:
http://www.trango.com/pdfs/B52InstructionSheet.pdf
and a video but unfortunately without how to belay a second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Qei9gNLew

A nice small report from somebody who got convinced about using the self-braking method:
http://www.gravsports.com/Gear%20Folder ... _Guide.htm

Aaron

Trad/sport comes into it as well due to gear avalible and position. there are many locations where an indirect belay would be impossible. They are often more complicated to set up, but are more comfortable and easier to escape from if needed. Would be easier to disscuss merits of both methods though face to face at a crag. The type of belay device will also dictate what is easiest/possibel/safest to do.

Yes I agree face to face would be easier and I might do it next time, or at least I try it how it feels like. I only chose that way of communication because I can provide sketches with my explainations, in nature it was so difficult to explain it and so timeconsuming to show it, I prefered to climb.

You said it might be impossible to set up an indirect method. Since you always have at least two points/gears connected with a sling (force triangle) you always could put a quickdraw into one point to change the direction of the rope...

Hey Aaron,

You commented on my belaying last Sunday so maybe that partly inspired your post.

So I think you are saying that to belay a second using a standard belay device you should either do it direct from the anchor or if you choose to do it indirect (i.e. from your belay loop or rope loop) that the rope must go through a carabineer above you at your anchor before going down to the second. Such an arrangement would redirect the load of a fallen second so that it is upwards from your harness. That totally makes sense in the sport climbing situation shown in the video you linked.

The way I was belaying on Sunday was different because I wasn’t hanging off a bolt. The ropes passed through my anchors and were tied off on a carabineer through the rope loop on my harness. The belay device was then also attached to the same rope loop on the harness. Any load from the second pretty much goes straight to the anchors even though I am attached into the system. To hold a fall I pull the rope back and into my body which is fairly intuitive and easy to control. I can’t say I have ever had any trouble holding a fall or lowering a second from this system and I have belayed some relatively heavy (>95kg) people this way.
Escaping the system is a faff but then it is easier to lower a second than with an auto-braking device (e.g. reverso) and it is kinder to the rope than an Italian Hitch (Halbmastwurf(?)).

Check this dudet from a Mountain Leader Training Handbook:

Jon

Redirecting the rope through a carabiner is a great method to use when belaying a second, but it's not often an option on single pitch routs. Often when a leader tops out he'll simply walk back from the lip of the crag until he finds a suitable anchor, a sturdy tree for instance. If the tree has no extending branches, or there's no rock above him to set an anchor he'll obviously have to use another method. I prefer to belay directly off the anchor because, like you said, it doesn't put the force of the falling second directly on the belayer.

If you're climbing multipitch you may be able to set up a redirecting carabiner at the belay point. But again this is only possible if there is a suitable anchor above your belay point. I use an ATC guide and would prefer to set up an autoblock in that situation; however, if you're using a belay device that doesn't have an autoblock configuration you should set up the safest, most comfortable belay possible. Again in that situation I would belay off the anchors. The only time I wouldn't belay off the anchor is if the protection was bad and it was necessary to take the brunt of the force against my body to decrease the amount of force on the anchors. This usually isn't the case in sport climbing as bolts, if placed correctly, are often much more reliable than trad anchors.

Fuggles wrote: I prefer to belay directly off the anchor because, like you said, it doesn't put the force of the falling second directly on the belayer.

Check out the lines of force in picture A above. There is a direct line from the second to the belay device then from the belay device via the rope to the anchor. The belayer is in the system but they are not taking the direct load!

Direct belaying with a Reverso is great until the second asks for slack or wants lowered off, then its a bitch!

thank you for the scan! Perfect!
Ok now I get it that it is not that unconfortable because the person effectively hangs in the anchor. I wounder if it would be possible to use it directly in the anchor but without you attached to it?

The indirect method should be possible anyway, even in flat anchors. Because you still could use a sling from your harness to the anchor and put in addition the carabiner into the anchor to redirect the rope. It could be a bit close together but should work.
The advantage would be that you have a bit more freedom to rearrange your setup in case that you have to help your second.

I guess that all comes down to personal preference and the specific situation. The situation in the picture works great if the anchor's a long way from the edge and you want to run ropes to it. I think it is quicker and easier to set up than if you did the same thing but without being attached into the belay. I know I find it easier to belay from than if I try belaying direct with the rope across the floor.

That said I would often use a Reverso direct in auto-braking mode if I was on an intermediate belay on a multipitch route and I was confident about the seconds ability - for the reasons you give. Last time though I didn't as I thought I might have to lower the second...

ok yes I got it

As I said I definitely have to try it the next time...

Yesterday I was in Northumberland with Stephens, Kyle and Michl. Was great! I tried all the methods we discussed here and I have to say all of them are really practicable dependent on anchor and belay point. The "scottish" direct method is especially good in such area like northumberland where there is nothing but one single rock 20m away from the wall edge to set up the anchor. I redirected the rope at the anchor and fixed it with a screwable carabiner on my harness, then the belay devise was put in the rope loop which was attached to the harness too. It didn't feel unconfortable to sit on the platform to belay. What I didn't like was the direct method where I couldn't sit, there I prefered the indirect or self-braking method.

All in all a very interesting experience yesterday. Thank you for the helpful discussion here!

Here's an interesting idea I've just found on 'Pschovertical' as to what to do if your second gets stuck and you need to lower off.

http://www.psychovertical.com/?Escapingautobelayplate

Although if you were willing to do that in the first place...

I think there's something in that book, Jon, about using a sling and your anchor in a pulley fashion to release the belay plate and not transfer to an Italian hitch.

With the atc guide that Christian has it's relatively easy to attach a sling to the belay plate and a krab, which pulls it back and releases the auto-break so you can lower people off with it.

If you know there's a chance you'll have to lower someone off, I guess you would have that set up in advance... and you can always do it after the rope is already loaded and through the belay plate, it doesn't take very long. I think this is what you're referring to Stephen.

Yeah. I think the ATC has taken the benefit of the reverso and adapted it to make releasing when loaded easier.

And, like you say Sarah, you can easily plan in advance if you think you may need it.